Growing Supply Chain Partner Businesses: Procurement, SMEs and Tier Ones, with Pamela Cunningham

In this episode of the Red Review, host Jeremy Brim is joined by Pamela Cunningham, founder of Growth and Performance Solutions, for a conversation about how supply chain SMEs grow, and how they win more work from the tier one businesses above them.

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The Red Review Podcast, brought to you by Growth Ignition and Bidscript

Pamela's background is tier one procurement and commercial, spanning home improvements, energy and healthcare construction. She's worked the client, main contractor and subcontractor sides of the table, which gives her a genuinely holistic view of the industry. A year ago she left a corporate construction role and built a consultancy from scratch, largely by posting everything she knew on LinkedIn over a summer.

Understanding your place in the supply chain

One of the most common gaps Pamela sees is businesses who don't understand their own position in the supply chain. She's met business owners who genuinely didn't realise they were operating as a sub-subcontractor, several tiers removed from the end client.

Her advice is straightforward: if you delivered the work, talk about it. There are approvals and publicity implications to navigate, but when it comes to bid case studies, businesses should absolutely be referencing their methodology and delivery, regardless of who they were contracted through.

Pamela's approach with clients starts with business strategy, working out where a business is now, what it's already delivered, and how that can be leveraged toward where it wants to go. Not every business wants to become a principal contractor, and that's fine. The goal is a realistic, sustainable plan, including the real cost of getting there, whether that's professional resource or accreditations.

The ego problem

Jeremy shared a live example: a client turnover of around a million pounds, beautifully positioned for a large public sector opportunity, but pushing for a 50/50 joint venture with a much bigger partner rather than accepting a sub-consultant role first. If the client is remotely switched on, that JV bid won't win.

Pamela's take: ego gets in the way constantly. Small, ambitious business owners need to make decisions based on what's genuinely best for the business, not the shiniest option available. Building a track record as a sub-consultant, then scaling from there, is usually the smarter path, even if it's less glamorous.

Frameworks aren't the finish line

A theme both Jeremy and Pamela kept returning to: getting onto a framework is the easy part. The hard work, and the real differentiator, is staying relevant on it, winning the individual competitions within it, and delivering well enough to be invited back for the next one.

Pamela pointed out that some suppliers tell their own clients that landing a framework place means they can "work on the business instead of in the business" from that point on. In reality, it's the opposite: framework award is where the work begins, not where it ends.

There's also a structural issue at play. Some public sector frameworks are now running to eight year terms, originally intended as open frameworks with four year retest points that allow businesses to step on and off. Where that flexibility doesn't materialise, it locks smaller businesses out of the market for a long time.

Certainty over scale for its own sake

Jeremy made the case that the real prize for smaller supply chain businesses isn't chasing the biggest or shiniest opportunity. It's certainty: platform clients with repeat business, secured through procurement routes with the least friction. That certainty is also what drives business valuation, since a sale multiplier is informed by the strength and predictability of the pipeline, not just current turnover.

Pamela and Jeremy also touched on a wider point for business owners generally: design the business around the life you actually want in three, five and ten years' time, rather than scaling for its own sake and ending up locked into difficult clients and unsustainable hours.

Using AI properly in bids

Jeremy shared what he's seeing from clients right now: people aren't asking whether to use AI in bidding anymore, they're asking for help getting out of the mess they've already made with it. The common mistake is treating AI purely as a writing tool, rather than using it across the bid lifecycle, for research, for bid/no bid decisions (including structured tools like the SCOTSMAN framework), for storyboarding, and for reviewing content against the original questions.

The warning from both: never submit a proposal to a stranger, and never feed a tender straight into an AI tool and act on the output unchecked. In construction particularly, AI can't work out your solution or how you'll actually deliver the job, and hallucinated content is a real risk. Read the tender documents properly, map out your own solution, and use AI to test and refine, not to generate blind.

Practical growth tips for smaller supply chain businesses

Pamela shared a set of practical, non-glamorous levers that make a real difference for SMEs trying to win more work from tier ones:

• Visibility matters more than most business owners think. Around 94 to 96% of construction businesses are on LinkedIn, but very few post. Posting even once a month, showing projects delivered, challenges overcome and work in the pipeline, builds trust and demonstrates delivery capacity

• Site visits, roundtable breakfasts and small, regular touchpoints (three or four a year) go a long way toward building genuine client relationships, and the addressable audience for most small businesses is smaller than they think, often only 20 to 30 key contacts a year

• Accreditations should be strategic, not scattergun. Pamela's approach is to build toward Constructionline Gold or Silver as the primary accreditation, then negotiate additional scheme requirements rather than collecting every certificate going

• Tier ones engaging SMEs should be more intentional and transparent about what packages of work actually require to deliver successfully, rather than leaving smaller suppliers to find out the hard way that they were never in contention

Listen to the full episode

Catch the full conversation between Jeremy and Pamela on the Red Review podcast, brought to you by Growth Ignition in partnership with Bidscript.

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Transcript

00:00:00
[upbeat music]Welcome to the Red Review Podcast, brought to you by Growth Ignition, the work-winning transformation and training business, and our partners Bidscript, the bid management, bid writing, and opportunity search platform.
[upbeat music]Hello, and welcome to the Red Review with me, Jeremy Brim.
Uh, really fascinating subject matter today.
I'm joined by my friend, uh, Pamela Cunningham.
Hi, Pamela.

00:00:27
Hi, Jeremy.
How are you?

00:00:29
I'm very well, thank you.
Very well.
How are you?

00:00:32
Yeah, I'm good.
Thank you.

00:00:33
Good, good.
Well, thank you for coming along.
So we were just saying off camera that I've been meaning to have a conversation like this for a long time, actually.

Uh, the subject today is about how we help, um, organizations that are in the supply chain of bigger organizations grow and, and prosper.
Um, and so but I guess let's, let's get into it, Pamela.
So if you wouldn't mind just giving us a bit of an introduction in terms of your background, career, and what you find yourself doing these days.

00:01:03
Yeah.
So my background is tier one procurement and commercial.
Um, you know, I started, um, my sort of construction journey in home improvements and then found myself in commercial construction.
Quite literally found myself there.
Um, uh, finally I was actually having a conversation the other day and someone said, you know,"What would you do next if it wasn't construction?"And I just thought, when you're in[laughs]you don't really see any other pathway.

00:01:27
[laughs]

00:01:27
Like, there's no other industry as far as I'm concerned.
Um-

00:01:30
Yeah

00:01:31
...
but then, you know, I started working on major projects in utilities, or energy sector should I say.
Um, and then I moved over to healthcare.
Um, I have the perspective of the main contractor and the client and the subcontractor, so I find myself in quite a unique position where I've got, you know, quite a holistic view of the industry.
When I worked in the energy sector, I did procure materials, but I mean, usually when you think about procurement, you do think about, you know, buying goods.

00:02:04
Um-

00:02:04
Mm-hmm

00:02:04
...
where I found myself was, you know, the materials or the supplies that I was purchasing, um, you know, were tens of millions of pounds of, um, you know, underground cables.
Uh, and it just wasn't the same as what, you know, what I was originally, uh, exposed to at the start with facilities management when it was, like, plum-plumbing fittings and things like that.
Um, so it was quite new to me, but then I, I found myself working a lot with the subcontractors.
And because my husband's got a tiling contracting business, it just felt very normal to me.

00:02:39
It felt very comfortable.
Um, so I then moved over to a supply chain management role, which to be honest, wasn't in public sector and just wasn't what I thought it was gonna be.
Um, you know, I found myself better suited to private sector.
And then I went into a healthcare, um, project, and I got myself a sort of different perspective from, you know, being in the energy sector and procuring utilities subcontracts, uh, sorry, external subcontracts, into the healthcare sector working internals.

00:03:11
So, you know, your, your, uh, internal finishes, your flooring, hygienic wall finishes, all that type of stuff.
Um, in the energy sector, the supply chain is very niche, uh, especially in the north of Scotland.
Uh, and it was difficult to engage smaller businesses and, you know, um, I proudly did do it, but not to the extent to which I wanted to.
So when I moved over to healthcare, you know, in a sort of urban area, I really hoped to have more opportunity to bring on, um, to bring in, like, smaller supply chain partners.

00:03:45
But the project was just so big it wasn't an option, so I found myself in an urban area in Scotland bringing up contractors, sort of national, like, national contractors from down south to deliver the project, and it just didn't feel right, especially when we were targeted to engage smaller businesses.
Um, that paired with the challenges of, you know, being a, a full-time working parent, I thought,"I'm gonna go off and just...
If I don't do it now, I'll never do it."And I never really knew what the plan was, but I left my sort of corporate construction role last summer, um, and just spent the summer holidays posting everything that I knew on LinkedIn.

00:04:25
And I'm a year later.
Now I have a consultancy and associate consultants, and I'm just going with the flow.
[laughs]And it's, uh, it's been a whirlwind, but I now find myself with a really clear direction moving forward.
Um, and I find myself with a nice network of sort of ambitious, small, like, SME contractors who want to do more, and they want to deliver more.
And with our industry having a sort of resource, um, crisis and we, we focus on bringing young people in and apprenticeships, I just think-

00:04:56
Mm-hmm

00:04:56
...
there's so much opportunity to upskill the SMEs that we already have to do better and contract better.
So that's essentially the journey that I'm on now.

00:05:07
Very good.
And it's really exciting and, uh, thoroughly needed.
Um, and so thank you for posting your content.
You're also big on the TikTok, aren't you?
You told me so.

00:05:16
Yeah.
Yeah, that was an accident, but it's worked out really well.
[laughs]

00:05:21
Yeah.
You're, you're teaching s-me something about marketing there.

00:05:24
[laughs]

00:05:24
I, I probably need to grow up or grow down in the, um-

00:05:27
Yeah.
Well-

00:05:28
I should get down with the kids.
Get on the TikTok.
Um, wonderful.
Well, it's, it's, it's, it's great to, um, be able to talk about your journey.
So I guess in...

And I, I have to say, I did think of you yesterday after I, I had a call with a client yesterday, um, who are a million turnover business, and they are beautifully positioned for a big public sector deal.
Um, but it's a million...
Uh, and they're going to partner with a much bigger business, but it's a million a year deal.
Um, and I had to break it to them yesterday, if the client's remotely switched on, they're not gonna give it to them.

00:06:05
So they can't 50/50 JV with a bigger business.
They need to, unfortunately, be a sub-consultant and then build their track record and scale, and then, you know, go on, go on the journey.
So, um, this is-

00:06:17
And unfortunately ego gets in the way there, doesn't it?
And that's the thing that I'm finding myself saying a lot.
You know, please don't make these decisions with your ego leading.
You know, you need to think about what's best for the business here, and that's a challenge for a lot of small, ambitious business owners.

00:06:34
Yes.
Well, and, and I guess they, they don't understand the full implications or cost of sale.
Um, so they, they've ended up, they're gonna be bidding something, uh, in a certain fashion, um, which is pretty suboptimal actually.

They, it could, the work could have been just direct awarded to their bigger partner or through a different framework, and they would be, um, down the road by now, uh, as, as a potential option.
So how do we go about growing supply chain partner businesses?
So businesses that work with tier ones.

00:07:05
What, what's your top tips, Pamela, or the stuff that you're working with on cl-on, with your clients on how they work with bigger businesses?

00:07:13
It's essentially, um, it's understanding the supply chain tier, and not a lot of businesses are aware of it or are aware of how it's structured.
Um, you know, I've met business owners who have no idea that they are, you know, a sub-subcontractor, and that's, that's how it works.
They, they just...

Uh, do you know, I actually had a conversation with somebody the other day and they were, you know, like,"Yeah, we've delivered this project, but it was for such and such.
Uh, that's tier two.
Yeah, we have been on that project, but it was for them."And I'm like,"Yeah, but you've still been on it.

00:07:44
You still delivered it.
You've still done that."

00:07:46
Mm-hmm.

00:07:47
"So you should talk about it."Um, yes, there's implications with, you know, publicizing things and you need to get approvals, but when it comes to case studies for bids, you absolutely should be talking about your methodology in delivering that project,'cause you did do it.
Um, so that essentially is how we sort of, um, position a sort of sustainable claim in the supply chain tier.
But how I tech, uh, how I operate is we do a business strategy first and foremost, and it's, and I, I, I try and not make it, you know, something really glorified.

00:08:18
It is essentially, where are you now?
What have you delivered already?
And how can we leverage that to get to where you want to be?
Some businesses want to go all the way.

They want to grow.
They want to be a principal contractor, and that is great, and we will, you know, um, we will sort of map out realistically, you know, what is a sustainable duration for them to attain that.
But then als-uh, again, what is the cost, um, um, investment for that, whether that be your, the professionals that you need or the accreditation, things like that.

00:08:49
Maintaining a competent resource as well is, is important.
Um, and then we also, um, sort of move in, after we do the business strategy, we then move into consultancy.
Um, and then after the sort of, uh, well, what, essentially what I'm trying to do here, and I like to be really transparent about it,'cause I feel like the more I talk about it, the more people like yourself will come along and think,"Ah, I think I can help."Um-

00:09:15
Mm-hmm

00:09:15
...
you know, what I want to do is to, um, deliver, um, sort of third-party strategies for clients and developers, because I feel at client level they don't even know if they've got the supply chain to deliver the contract, uh, the, the projects that they need.
And I have been involved in commissioning those strategies to really big consultancies, and I know that they don't understand the supply chain or subcontractors.
Um, so you know, that's what I want to get to.

00:09:46
But I don't feel like I can do it well enough if I've not got, you know, the experience of really developing the small businesses, and that's kind of where we're at now.
But yeah, we start with business strategy and then we take that into the consultancy, which is essentially, you know, me and the associates that we've got, um, from bid writers to commercial management, health and safety, supporting them on the way.
You know, I don't, um, I don't always advocate for outsourcing.
I think it's really important that businesses know what good looks like before they outsource, but there are some instances where, you know, the health and safety advisor, for example, uh, we don't make that transactional.

00:10:23
We want them to learn on the way.
Some businesses I work with now, they've never been asked for a set of RAMs.
So you know, if we are then trying to get them accreditations and things like that, um, they need to know what's expected and the purpose of these things so that they take it seriously, which means when they get to that tier one delivery, you know, they're not firefighting and being reactive.
It's something that they've put in place already.

00:10:47
Yeah, yeah.
No, absolutely.
Um, and that whole, you've, you've touched on something that's really important in that journey there, them understanding the accreditations and policies they need, uh, to be able to do certain types of work, and what the implications are of that is, is really important,'cause that stuff's not actually cheap.
Um, and there's, there's effort required, and you've got to maintain it.
And of course it's a bit of a moving feast.

You know, government love to invent a new standard or a thing.
You know, we've seen...
Oh, actually, uh, it's, it's something I didn't put on our agenda, but, uh, and it's not so much, I dunno whether it's a Scotland thing or just an England and Wales thing, but there has been a change to the social value, uh, PPN stuff in the last week or two.

00:11:31
So we, we're recording this in mid-August.
This might not go out until well into September, so it's probably old news.
Um, but the, the implications for smaller businesses in that are quite significant in that the, the clients on stuff over five million are only really going to measure number of jobs created and opportunities and things like that, apprenticeships.
They're, they're not gonna bother with some of the softer stuff, um, that we've had to measure or, you know, sustainability for instance, which is a bit of a shame.

00:12:03
Um, that's not gonna be in the social value space.
So there, there's, there's, there's pros and cons to that for smaller businesses-

00:12:08
Mm-hmm

00:12:08
...
if that gets stepped down to them, uh, from the tier one, which is very possible in-

00:12:13
Mm-hmm

00:12:13
...
what you're talking about.
Um, they're probably gonna have to commit to-Creating X number of jobs and apprentices and all of that kind of stuff, which is not, which is not easy.
Um, so that's interesting.

00:12:25
And that is, is a conversation in itself for growth.
Um, you know, uh, subcontractors do not want to hire apprent-apprentices right now.
Um, as well as the consultancy, both myself and my husband have got the Skilled Trades Network, which is a networking group for, you know, um, SMEs in construction who, you know, they want to learn commercial, you know, commercial contracting, but they also want...

They want to give back.
We do school career events.
We want to influence young people into the industry.

00:12:57
Um, but, you know, and I, and through that, um, through that network, I meet a lot of different sort of stakeholders from, you know, education and government, and we always talk about, you know, getting into the schools and influencing young people and, you know, we feel really excited about it, and so we should be,'cause it's, it's a great exercise, and there is nothing more rewarding than being in a school, seeing a young person get really hands-on doing a, a trade activity and really enjoying it.
But we're just not talking about the fact that business owners don't want to hire apprentices for a multitude of reasons.
Number one is the financial implications,'cause there's just not enough support, and Scotland and England are very different, and I think that causes a lot of friction as well.

00:13:46
Um, you know, I don't...
I know Scottish businesses are thinking,"Well, that's how England operates and it seems to be a lot better, so why don't we do it that way?"Um, but then also there's an attitude of young people, which, um, a lot of business owners, they take to social media and they just moan about the attitude of young people, and they complain, um, you know, uh, it, the, the generations are different.
Whereas I think we need to adapt to that, and we need to understand and, you know, I actually did a post about this on TikTok once and got slated for it.
Um, but essentially, you know, you've got young people who can't put their phone down.

00:14:21
They really struggle with it, but it is addiction.
That is, that is what society has done to young people.
And the way that we fix that or, you know, improve that is not by slating them on social media and making them feel nervous about coming to work.
It's about giving them something else to do with their hands, which is, as a trades person, your responsibility.
Um, so yeah, I think we, there's a lot of different reasons why, um, s-small businesses don't want to hire apprentices, and until we tackle that issue, I don't understand the, the value in engaging young people.

00:14:55
Although we do it because it's, you know, immediately rewarding, but long-term it's completely disconnected.

00:15:01
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a huge problem, and it, there's a massive irony or a dark cloud coming that, you know, AI, AI is gonna, and automation's gonna heavily disrupt the careers of those kids.

The, the, the one bit that the, the sort of AI and automation can't do is build stuff.
Um, so it's a great opportunity.
Uh, and actually my, I think I said to you before, um, my most successful individual client, um, is a scaffolder.

00:15:30
Mm-hmm.

00:15:31
Owns a scaffolding business.
Um, couple of million turnover, 20, uh, blokes largely, um, putting poles up the outside of buildings and things.
Uh, but it's an extremely successful business, very profitable because he's been incredibly smart in how he's structured it and his client base in particular.

Uh, he's got three or four strategic clients.
Um, and he's, he invests all the, all the profits from that in a property portfolio.
He'll be retired by the time he's 38.

00:16:01
Mm.

00:16:02
Um, so it, it, you know, it, there's, it's hard work in doing that.
Um, but, you know-

00:16:07
There is a, there is a project going on in Scotland just now in some colleges where, um, they are testing entrepreneurial skills in the apprenticeship program, um, which, um, is something that all of the members of the Skilled Trades Network have said.
You know, they're like,"We've figured out how to run a business, and we're still trying to figure it out."Um-

00:16:29
Mm-hmm

00:16:29
...
and you know, a lot of us in business, no matter what industry you're in, are in the same boat, but you know, they're, they're like you're basically taught in your apprenticeship is to do the, the, the skill, the trade, but you're not taught anything on, you know, setting up a business, hiring people, you know.
And, and I think the entrepreneurial skills in apprentices-in apprenticeships is, is important and a great step forward.
But again, where I see a bit of a, a bit of friction is when, you know, you've got a 50-year-old, uh, painter and decorator who decides to hire an apprentice, and this 18-year-old comes in who's super entrepreneurial and just, you know, causes friction, causes upset.

00:17:10
Yeah.
Yeah.

00:17:11
Um, and I, I think that's a, that's a small short-term, um, issue.
But I still think that long-term entrepreneurial skills in apprentice-apprenticeships is, is a great step forward.

00:17:24
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I've been banging, starting to bang the drum about it for about a year now.
Um, and I'm talking or trying to talk to Department for Business and Trade about this, and MP friends of mine and stuff.

Uh, but I can't get people to get their head around it.
But fundamentally, you know, nobody teaches anyone how to grow a B2B or B2G business, a business to business or business to government business, at any point in their studies.
Um, there's no one that can join that, the dots through the funnel for them.

00:17:57
So ev-everybody's learning the same as everybody learned how to use Excel, by doing.

00:18:01
Mm-hmm.

00:18:02
And you only, you can only see what you can see, and know what you can know.
You don't know what you don't know.
And so they're not alone.

These small businesses are not alone at all.
I've, I've got leaders of multi-billion turnover organizations who don't really understand their client journey or funnel, um, and how to grow their business at all.
They just think you bid for loads of stuff and get on loads of frameworks-

00:18:25
Mm-hmm

00:18:25
...
and that's how you grow a business, and it, it's, it's really not actually.
Um, there's far, the heroic ROI is in key account management

00:18:34
Mm-hmm

00:18:35
And so, so connecting together the stock sort of stuff you'll be doing with your clients.
Where's the money gonna be with who?
Market research.
Set a business plan or target team, and then most, a, a lot of it will be made up of your key clients already.

It might be, you know, f-two-thirds key clients that you've already got, a third new prospects that you need to win over.
And you might need to court three times as many prospects to convert the one.
But, you know, for a smaller business, you probably only need to win one new client a year-

00:19:06
Mm-hmm

00:19:06
...
that's got, that's got a program of work off into the future or a big mega project.
Um, and you'll smash your numbers to bits, whereas everyone ends up messing about with bidding for stuff down in the end game, and, um, not winning very much and having a bad time.
And the stuff the, the other thing that really comes through is the 80/20 thing.
They're all making 80% of their profit with 20% of their clients.

00:19:29
Mm-hmm.

00:19:29
Um, and so why not cut the tail and stop working with the ones you lose money on?
'Cause you're probably losing money because you're not having a good time, and they're not having a good time.
It wasn't a good fit.
You may well have hobby bid it and won it by accident.

00:19:44
[laughs]

00:19:44
Whereas actually, let's just, let's just figure out what the DNA of your perfect client looks like, uh, what, where do we have fun and everybody makes a bit of money, and because we're creating value, and then find more clients like that.
Um, so it's great you're doing that for in, in the supply chain SME space,'cause I don't think anybody else is.
Um-

00:20:04
I think when it, when it comes to frameworks as well, you know, I have kind of spoken about my frustration with frame-frameworks.
I have-

00:20:11
Mm

00:20:12
...
um, obviously procured some, and it's not been a great experience because the length of time it takes to put it in place, the project team are already figuring out how, um, a workaround to use somebody else,'cause, you know, as I was talking about this yesterday, at the start, you know, um, when you're st-you know, maybe the, the frameworks get, like, you know, a year left.
That team are already planning who they want to invite to the next round, and it's in your best interest for the operations side of the project or the business to suggest your name because those are the, those are the ones with the most influence.

00:20:48
So if I'm procurement, and ops come to me and say,"Right, we want this consultant on this framework,"it's in my best interest to get that consultant on that framework, otherwise they're gonna spend the next two to five years moaning at me.
Um-

00:21:01
Yeah, yeah

00:21:02
...
so, you know, I, I've been part of frameworks where, um, by the time you get it in place, those guys have already fell out with people, and you're like, well, you're gonna spend the next two years figuring out a workaround to use somebody else that you want to use anyway.
So I don't really see the value in them.
But then from a, um, supply chain perspective, there is a narrative where when you're on a framework, you just put your feet up and the project's just rolling, and that is something that I try and change.
And I like to say from TikTok level, because those who find me on LinkedIn, you know, they've already got half an idea.

00:21:37
Whereas businesses who find me on TikTok are, you know, they are thinking,"Well, that's not really how I thought that worked."Or, you know,"My mate went on this project or went on this framework and, you know, he gets all of these contracts, so that must be how it is for me."You know, whereas I say, when you get onto the framework, that's just the start.
You know, that's, that's the easy bit essentially.
You know, um, staying relevant on the framework and winning the many competitions and then delivering it successfully to the point where, you know, you're invited to tender again for the next one is actually where the hard work comes in.

00:22:09
Um-

00:22:09
Yeah, yeah.

00:22:10
I think, you know, there's definitely a, you know, an idea where as soon as you get that framework award, it's like, let's celebrate, pop the champagne.
Um, you know, I actually heard something the other day on social media, and it was, you know, we got, uh, we got a client on the framework.
That's them.

You know, they can start working on the business instead of in the business now.
And, and I thought, God, if that's you telling your client that, no wonder they think it.
No wonder that's the story when it, it's just so far from reality.

00:22:39
Yeah.
Afraid so.
Um, it's got, yeah, you've got to be client centric, not project or procurement lens centric.
You've got, you've got to be on the right...

If you want to work with the public sector, for instance, you've got to be on the right frameworks.
And there is some frustration, uh, I have at the moment at the biggest end of stuff, the likes of government commercial agency procuring eight-year framework agreements.
Um, you know, there's organizations that I work with that are five years old, and they've doubled every year.

00:23:11
They're 200 odd million now.

00:23:13
Mm-hmm.

00:23:13
So in the, in the spa-you know, four, four years should be an appropriate term for a public sector framework.
But both the DFE and, uh, in England and Wales this is, and, um, Government Commercial Agency have both this year let, um, eight-year frameworks, the DFE ones for construction stuff.
Um, and I, I just think, uh, they've got drivers behind that decision.
They've done that for a reason, and they've taken slight advantage of the new Procurement Act, um, to do that.

00:23:44
But they, the, the eight-year term was meant to be for open frameworks where you retest it after four years, and people can step on and step off.

00:23:52
Oh.

00:23:52
Um, and so they, they've been a bit naughty there, but it just, it precludes people.
Uh, yeah, they, they, they're basically just buying in these big tier ones to, you know, take all the cream forever and, um, or for, for a, for a long time.
And tho-those businesses are, there's lots of wonderful tier ones, right, that are great to work with, and there's loads of drivers for them about engaging their supply chain and SMEs.
Um, so there's lots of opportunity for your clients and people in, uh, the, the supply chain.
But, um, I, I think there should be more appropriate routes than just dynamic purchasing systems-

00:24:28
Mm-hmm

00:24:28
...
for, for SMEs,'cause that, that's just a bloodbath of horrendous mini bids where you're bidding against 10 firms or something.
The, the biggest thing that your clients need to get a grip of is certainty So how, how do they get themselves the greatest level of certainty for as long as possible off into the distance-

00:24:49
Mm-hmm

00:24:49
...
has gotta be the goal.
So platform clients with repeat business is obviously a, a, a key anchor to that, but procurement routes where they can get to work, um, with least friction and, and maximum certainty.
'Cause that's...

I mean, one day some of them might have an aspiration to scale and sell the business, and that's how you value a business.
It's a, it's a...
You, you calculate what your average profit was over three to five years, um, and then they apply what's a multiplier to that.

00:25:20
So it might be three or five or 10X, depending on the sort of perception of the business.
But that multiplier is informed by your pipeline off into the future, and their confidence in your ability to convert it.

00:25:35
Mm.

00:25:35
And so if you can build into your business some anchor clients with great certainty.
And that might not be...
Because again, you probably get this with your clients in the ego thing.
They wanna go for the biggest thing, the shiniest thing, um, when actually working with these clients that are like the ones you already work with where you're making money is a lot more straightforward, a lot lower-

00:25:57
Yeah

00:25:57
...
investment, all that kind of stuff.
So it depends on what their, their drivers are.
And'cause you're, uh, I guess you're working with business owners, right, quite often?

00:26:05
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:07
Yeah.
So there's also, the bit that they also forget, which I've had to coach some of mine.
So I, I coach a s-a small number of, of SMEs, their boards and things.
Normally when they're going through some sort of change or transformation or on the way to a sale.
Um, and I've probably said it three times la-in the last week or so, they d-they need to take a step back and think about what they want their life to look and feel like in three, in three, five and 10 years'time in terms of work and personally, and wellbeing and health and all the rest of it.

00:26:40
And then you can design a business that enables that life.
If you just try and scale a business come what may, working with...
You could end up waking up in 10 years'time and you're working with terrible clients, killing yourself-

00:26:53
Mm

00:26:54
...
working all hours, blowing yourself to bits, and having to have lots of sorts of staff that are expensive or difficult to manage or whatever it is.
Taking on more risk, um, when actually you could've just kept your head below the radar and scaled-

00:27:08
Yeah

00:27:08
...
the business this way, whatever that looks like, and, and had a better time.
So, um, you gotta be careful what you wish for, and it's same for you lady, actually.
Um-

00:27:16
[laughs]

00:27:17
You know?

00:27:17
I'm thinking, are you talking about me?
[laughs]

00:27:19
Yeah, no.
It's just, uh, my wife, funny enough, my wife and I are gonna recast our vision for our group of businesses, um, before the end of the summer because we've kind of, we've relocated and done a bunch of stuff that was in our previous sort of, uh, vision and now we need a bit of a reset.
'Cause the world's changing around us, you know.
Our-

00:27:39
Yeah

00:27:39
...
our property business is scaling, but at the same time AI's affecting the core businesses.

00:27:45
Yeah.

00:27:45
Um, so you know, we, we've gotta figure out what the, what...
You know, just tune up of the strategy and what we want.
So, um, that's im-it's important stuff, that.

00:27:54
When it comes to proposals, you know, what is your take on, on AI?
Um, mine's is, mine's changes a lot.
[laughs]

00:28:05
Well, it's interesting.
I'm, I'm thinking about launching a, a training course in how to use AI in bidding.
Um, and this, uh, program of, uh, podcasts is sponsored by Bidscript who are an AI bidding platform, and talking to Henry and the team there, they, they have a similar ask.
We're both getting a similar ask.
Um, people aren't asking whether it's the right thing or not, um, and they're not even asking how to do it as in a start-starting from scratch.

00:28:36
It's that they've been messing about with ChatGPT or Copilot or Claude or something, and they've got themselves in a mess.
So I've had, I've had two inquiries during late July into August already where people have been playing at it, and they're getting lost in it.

00:28:53
Mm.

00:28:53
Um,'cause it's really easy to get it wrong.
Um, so the, I guess in terms of the top tips, it's don't just think about AI as a writing tool.
It's actually useful in lots of ways.
It's useful pre-bid in terms of research and understanding, uh, of the client, which we should, you know, fundamentally your clients and any business should never write a proposal to a stranger.

00:29:21
Mm.

00:29:21
'Cause you're not, you're prob-you're probably not gonna win.
It's a waste of effort and heartbeats.
So it shouldn't pass your bid/no bid.
Um, and I think, didn't we talk about, Pamela, that, you know, first of all, uh, so the, the second...
Do research.

The second bit is it's very useful for helping you with your bid/no bid decision.
Um, and funny enough, talking to a lady in Scots-Scotland, uh, there is a model called the SCOTSMAN, um, which you can Google, which is an anagram, and I always forget what it stands for.
But in effect, it gives you a standard form and a set of questions to answer which help you make a good decision on whether you should bid for the thing or not.

00:29:59
But, you know, is it real?
Do we know the client?
Can we actually deliver this thing?
Have we actually got the people to deliver the bid, a successful bid, not just filling a form in, et cetera.
But again, you can use AI to help you crowdsource the data in, um, and help you make those decisions and, and all of that kind of stuff.

Um, and then you can use it not just for writing, but for storyboarding.
So you can use it for solu-for strategy stuff, help you with your propositions, et cetera.
But particularly you can help use it to help you break questions down and scoring criteria, and then develop content And then help you review the content.

00:30:35
So you can ask it to go back and look at the questions and the storyboarding you did, and have we answered the question fully, et cetera, et cetera.
So there's, there's myriad ways you can use it through the life cycle of a bid.
But what most people are doing is just chucking an ITT in, uh, uh, your end of stuff, I think, and just going,"Can you write me a bid?"And it comes back with a bunch of American-sounding, overly positive stuff with hallucinations in it.
It's made shit up.

00:31:00
Yeah.

00:31:01
Um, and particularly for your guys and girls, uh, solution is everything.
And in, in certain markets, particularly construction, it won't be able to work out your solution.
How are you gonna build the job or your bit of the job?

How are you gonna deliver this stuff?
So use it to help you understand the spec, but I, I would always urge everyone, you've got to read the entire tender documents more than once probably, and map out your solution and how you're gonna deliver the thing.
And use AI, AI to help you test that, but you can't just stick a bunch of documents in, get an output from whatever AI you're using, Copilot, whatever, and then just act on that because it won't understand it or hallucinate it.

00:31:42
You know, you gotta be really careful'cause it's, it's quite dangerous how wrong it can be.

00:31:47
Yeah.

00:31:47
Um, so-

00:31:48
Do you know when you're speaking there, I'm thinking about, um, temptation, and it's really difficult to, as, as just, uh, as humans to avoid temptation or to beat it.
And when I think about, you know, my, I've got two young kids, um, and my little girl, she's just turned, uh, nine, right?
But she, maybe when she was, like, four or five, and she kinda knew how to work the remote control.

Um, but we didn't want her watching YouTube.
But there's a YouTube button that you just press the button.
So for a period of time, you know, she kept getting in trouble because she was watching YouTube.

00:32:21
And then one day I realized that even as an adult, we would struggle to fight that temptation if it was right there in front of us.

00:32:28
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:28
So how do I expect a four-year-old to not press that button when it's right there?
So we actually just cut the button out of the remote control.
Um, and now I feel like I totally understand and agree with what you're saying on, you know, uh, AI and whatever which way, uh, whatever platform you use, it's good to test us, and it's good to test what we're thinking, but that's when it's used responsibly.
Where we're at now is that, you know, these subcontractors that I work with anyway, um, they have absolutely no desire to use it responsibly because they don't have the time or they don't understand that that's how they should use it, and they are just copying and pasting.

00:33:10
Um, and you know, I, I do re-I don't write bids.
You know, I don't.
I've never written bids, and I've tried it a few times, and it is h-hands down the worst activity I've ever done.
It's just-

00:33:22
[laughs]

00:33:23
...
honestly so painful.

00:33:25
On a pod-on a podcast about, on a podcast largely populated with an audience of bidding people, but they will absolutely understand what you mean.
Yeah, I get that.

00:33:31
Yeah.
Um, whereas, you know, it's, I understand the temptation of, of getting someone to do it for you and then thinking,"Well, I'll just review it myself,"you know, the other way around.
Whereas now when I review bids for, you know, main contractors and I'm looking at them and I'm thinking,"You have a organization that should know better than this,"and they don't.

And I think it's just resource.
Uh, everyone, everyone is tight on resource.
Um, and I think there's definitely more that could be done to inspire people to use AI better in bids.

00:34:06
Um-

00:34:06
Yeah, yeah

00:34:06
...
and again, I'll just think about upskilling ourself rather than passing it off to somebody before you know what good looks like.

00:34:14
Yeah, I'd agree.
It's actually worse than what you just said, though-

00:34:17
[laughs]

00:34:17
...
because the re-part, part of the, it's not just a resource thing.
Um, it's because they're probably bidding too much and writing bids to strangers.

Um, you know, so they're, they're trying to just fire out as many bids as possible using AI, um, and it will have brand impact, um, because the, the, you know, people like you on the other end and pr-you know, procurement people are getting pissed off with AI slop.
Um, we are...
I, I had a message from, uh, a friend of mine, a head of bids at a consulting business last night.

00:34:50
"Oh, Jeremy, do you do presentation training?"I said...
And I replied straightaway saying,"You're asking'cause you're getting invited to loads of dialogue meetings, aren't you?"It's not presentation training.
It's, it's competitive dialogues, which are a, a step above really.

Um, I've already done a bunch of work this year with a, an FM business that's had its f-you know, first decent competitive dialogue in a long time.
So, but basically, clients are gonna ask to see your people more because they, they don't wanna read your rubbish AI bids.
Um, so you're, they're actually causing a bigger problem in some ways.

00:35:24
Um-

00:35:25
Mm.

00:35:25
Well, in some ways that'll be an opportunity.
But-

00:35:27
Yeah, I think it is

00:35:28
...
realistically, they, you know, they, they need to be engaging clients for those packages of work way before they come out to tender and only bidding the ones where they've been close to it.

00:35:38
Mm.

00:35:38
Um, and then that will reduce, hopefully, the temptation.
They may well still use it, but hopefully they'll have a bit more time to do a good job of it.

00:35:45
Mm.

00:35:47
I'm, I'm, I'm sort of s-screaming into the abyss with that'cause, um, I've only got so much coverage and it's, the temptation is that you don't wanna miss out on these opportunities.
But if we can just get them to focus through your strategy work on the clients and the programs they should be pursuing and not hobby bidding stuff, uh, it might take you a year or two to turn the hobby bidding completely off.
But, you know, you've got...
Just bid, I, I would say bid 20% less and spend that effort and time-

00:36:16
Mm

00:36:16
...
on doing key account management and then better bids for the stuff that you, you should win.

00:36:21
Yeah.

00:36:21
Be the answer there.

00:36:21
I actually had that a bit, a conversation yesterday about sort of account management.
Um, and again, it's, it's astounding, you know, how much we've kind of done a 360 on that.
Um, and you know, that's just how we did business before, whereas now we're so used to-Teams meetings and tender portals, um, that the idea of actually building a relationship with somebody in business is just dumbfounding, and it's like,"Well, what do you mean?
We don't have the time for that."And I think that's where businesses do have to invest and probably why they are investing in someone like myself to kind of-

00:36:56
Mm-hmm

00:36:56
...
support them, be the s-not, not the face of the business, but, you know, definitely somebody side by side who's m-more comfortable, um, in person and, and offsite.

00:37:07
Yeah.
So some top tips on that, I guess, is, um, a wonderful opportunity that contractors, smaller contractors, and then subcon-subcontractors have, uh, is site visits.
Show, show your clients your stuff w-whilst it's happening or just after it's happened.
There, there needs to be a, an educational aspect and value to it.
Um, but that's an incredible opportunity that a lot of organizations-

00:37:32
Mm-hmm

00:37:32
...
even really big ones, don't take as much advantage of as, as they could.
'Cause then you can talk to them about their job while you're showing them this job and help coach them a bit on their approach and maybe help them shape their thinking towards a procurement that suits you better along the way, but creates value for them, saves them...

Hopefully, they could direct award it to you and saves them a procurement or whatever it is.
Um, but that sort of stuff and roundtable breakfasts and all those sorts of things.
'Cause when they, when they actually understand the size of their d-addressable audience, it'll actually be really small.

00:38:06
They probably only need to...
For a small business, um, they probably only need to engage, like, 20 to 30 people or something in a year.
Um, so a few, three site visits a year, three roundtable breakfasts, bit of a Christmas social, bit of a summer barbecue.

00:38:23
Mm-hmm.

00:38:23
Between all of that stuff, getting that face time, you can make quite a big impact with that as, and bid a bit less to help with the management time of doing that stuff, and you'll probably be a bit more successful.
But a lot of people don't do that stuff very well.
So what, so what are the small businesses'barriers to growth then, Pamela?
What's the stuff that really stops them being able to win work with tier ones and beyond?

00:38:46
Uh, visibility, I think, is the first one.
Again, we're so used to being on site and doing the job that the, the prospect or the idea of coming off site, um, you know, again, with resource, all these, um, business owners are sometimes are still working on the business, um, in the business.
So therefore-

00:39:06
Yeah

00:39:06
...
the idea of, you know, spending maybe one day a week, um, bidding for work, um, submitting bills or, you know, actually going out and meeting potential clients or networking.
And networking is, like, a bit of a taboo as well.
It's like, oh, what does that really mean?
Do I need business cards?

Like[laughs], it's just, it's just, um, it's, it's not even uncomfortable.
It's unenjoyable at this point in time.
Um, so I think visibility is the first one.
And I talk about LinkedIn all the time, and I'm, and I'm not shy in going into any boardroom, no matter the size of the business.

00:39:42
Even if I'm meeting, you know, an SME at a coffee shop and I will say,"Are you on LinkedIn?
If you're not, use LinkedIn."And they all-

00:39:52
Mm-hmm

00:39:52
...
say,"Yeah, we're on it.
Yeah, we use, yeah, we use it.
We just don't post on it.
It's just not, it's not good enough."And I, I think 96%, 94 or 96, I can't quite remember, of, uh, percent of construction are sitting on LinkedIn.

And, um, I've always used LinkedIn.
The, one of my previous bosses, uh, when I worked in home improvements was s-really big on LinkedIn.
He loved it.

And I just kind of inherited that from him.
Um, and when I worked at Balfour Beatty, they loved me being on LinkedIn.
They loved me sort of putting myself forward as a woman in the energy sector, and they really championed it.

00:40:26
In other job roles, they didn't love it so much.
Um, but you know, it's a place that feels comfortable for me.
I really enjoy it.
I don't love other social media platforms so much, but I use them.
Um, I l-I like LinkedIn.

Um, but I also enjoy it'cause I find that it, it works.
You know, it gets me business and it, and it, um, you know, I go to certain networking events or, you know, uh, even something like a Meet the Buyer, um, and people recognize me and it-it's not like a, it's not like a sort of vanity project.
You know, they actually reference posts and they'll say,"Oh, I like this post."And then we get into a conversation, and I find that far more valuable than sort of going into networking completely cold and not knowing anybody and, and starting from scratch.

00:41:09
Um, but again, with LinkedIn, I think there's so much opportunity, um, because, I mean, when I was in procurement and I was subcontractor sourcing, I would, we would always have to find subcontractors for Constructionline Gold, and that is another conversation.
But, um, you would go onto the Constructionline, you would find your...
Usually I would go to Constructionline Silver,'cause I had a rough idea that if you were on Silver you would upgrade to Gold, um, if you won the tender.
And I would find, make sure that my subcontractors were there and accredited, and then I would go onto their LinkedIn.

00:41:42
Yes, I would have a, you know, a look at their website.
I wasn't overly interested in the content of their website though, and especially not interested in the design of it.
And a lot of businesses that I work with spend 6,000 pounds on average on a website, and it is a shocking waste of money.
Whereas-

00:42:00
Mm

00:42:00
...
I would then go onto LinkedIn, uh, and I wouldn't necessarily be looking at the team in general or their company profile, but I would be wanting to connect with the directors or commercial managers, the decision-makers.
Because as a procurement, I would want to know, uh, who I'm doing business with.
I would want to know that, you know, if I'm then gonna go to a project team and say,"Right, I want to bring this contractor in,"you're not gonna give me a phone up[laughs]because obviously I've sourced you.
I want to know the, the, a rough idea of who I'm bringing in here.

00:42:31
Um, and that's the kind of advice that I give to business owners as well.
And, you know, on average, we kind of want you to post a couple of times a month, but, you know, a bit about you as a business owner and why you're in that business and what the challenges are and what you've overcome and what you enjoy about it.
A bit personable.

At the end of the day, it's social media.
But then another post on the projects that you've delivered, those in the past that are successful, ticked off, what were the challenges were, what was good about it, what you learned.
But then also, you know, projects that you've got in the pipeline that you can talk about.

00:43:03
'Cause what that does is it kind of shows me your capacity to deliver as well.
So you can be strategic with it.
You know, I always say I'm not asking you to post pictures of your dinner.
You know, I'm asking you to use it as a marketing tool-

00:43:12
Yeah, yeah

00:43:12
...
and it's a free one in a world where paid ads and other social media marketing is really expensive.

00:43:20
Yeah, yeah.
I, I wholeheartedly agree with that.
Uh, my wife and AO, who I've recorded an episode with, they both do, uh, LinkedIn training stuff, by the way-

00:43:30
Mm-hmm

00:43:30
...
uh, where they can help people up-skill in how to use it.
C-and, and, um, they sorted mine out last year, start of'25, I think, and it does make a big difference, your company profile page, and then, you know, do you do a quarterly newsletter that goes out to a list and that's all free, and all of that sort of stuff.
And like you, you know, I'm, I'm sort of weirdly LinkedIn famous.
What is it?

00:43:54
[laughs]

00:43:54
12,000-

00:43:56
Wow

00:43:56
...
followers or whatever.
So I, I get, um, you know, the same as you, people just stroll up to me like they know me.

00:44:02
Yeah.
[laughs]

00:44:03
Um,'cause it's either through this podcast or LinkedIn largely, and the videos that I do.
I need to get back into doing my weekly videos, um, but we've just been a bit busy with our property stuff and other things over the summer.
Um, but I, I actually had someone message me the other day asking me if I was all right,'cause they hadn't seen me-

00:44:21
Yeah[laughs]

00:44:21
...
post one of my videos for a little while.
There's still content scheduled, content going out, you know-

00:44:26
Mm-hmm

00:44:26
...
two or three times a week through the summer, uh, that my wife scheduled, and bits and bobs.
But I, I haven't been doing my usual, uh, videos and things.
Um, so it does, it does make a big difference.
I mean, I, I had a c-that consultancy yesterday that were trying to bite off more than they could chew bidding that big thing, um, that one of the two owners in that business said,"Oh, Jeremy, I feel like I know you'cause I read all your stuff on LinkedIn."

00:44:49
Yeah.

00:44:49
It is interesting how some people are visual people, they enjoy the videos, and some people are readers and enjoy the posts, et cetera.
He was a reader, which is less often actually.
It's more the videos that-

00:45:00
Mm

00:45:00
...
grab the attention.
But you're right.
There's, there's only, there's a billion people on LinkedIn, and only 1% of them ever post anything.
Um-

00:45:06
Really?
Wow.

00:45:08
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and so it's really significant, even if you just do something once a month.

00:45:14
Mm.
Mm-hmm.

00:45:14
Um, you know, the, the impact you can have for your business is, is really fantastic.
So visibility's a thing.
What else have you got?
What else are the, the good points?

00:45:21
Um, I think accreditations as well.
Um-

00:45:25
Okay

00:45:25
...
accreditation's not just, um, achieving them, but having a bit of a strategy in place.
Um, when I see, and this is coming from the kindness of my heart, when I see a, a trade van on the road and they've got a plethora of certificates all over their van, badges, uh, that doesn't impress me and it doesn't make me think that they are more capable than the next.
It tells me that they didn't have a clue what they were doing, and they went from one contractor to another w-who all want different accreditations.

00:45:56
Um, my approach to accreditations, um, is, um, potentially controversial but, you know, it's not, it's, it's not failed me yet.
Um, if you are targeting tier ones, whether it be, you know, now or in the future, your end goal is Constructionline Gold.
Um, depending on the size of your business now, you will either go for silver or gold.
Getting on Marketplace is a really good, uh, opportunity, so a really good tool to use, and a lot of people who even have Constructionline accreditations don't know that Marketplace exists, nor do they know how to use it.

00:46:31
Um, but I think if we go for Constructionline Silver to start with, it gives you a good benchmark of what you need to have from a compliance perspective in your business from policies and, you know, your training matrix and competence and things.
And then if need be, you know, you can, you can, um, upgrade, um, or accelerate to gold.
Um, when it comes to other accreditation schemes, what, what I find, and especially again with the resource sort of, uh, shortage, is that contractors are growing quicker.

00:47:02
So if you are maybe, um, targeting a, a tier th-two or three contractor and they're asking you for SMAS or CHAS or something along the lines, um, that's fine to get that now, but you'll probably find, you know, within a couple months to a year you'll need a Constructionline because of the, the, the rate in which you're, um, you're growing.

00:47:24
Mm.

00:47:24
So for me, I think it's just more cost-efficient.
Um, and, uh, yeah, it's more cost-efficient to get Constructionline.
Um, what we have done, and it works for us, is, you know, there, there is a, there is a, um, assessment that you do'cause it's part of the common assessment standard.

You can usually just use certificates.
You know, if you've got CHAS, you can then transfer it, but it still costs, still costs money.
Um, so what we usually do is if, you know, we've got Constructionline Gold or Silver and somebody asks us for another accreditation scheme, we usually just negotiate it, and it's never failed me yet.

00:47:56
Mm.

00:47:57
Um, and I do think Constructionline is a superior accreditation.
And they don't pay me to say that.
Um, but, you know, essentially, um, from a sort of main contractor perspective, we're all looking for that level of competence.
Um, so again, I would much rather see one sort of certificate on your van or your website than all of them, which obviously that does include your trade-specific, um, accreditations or policies, you know, whether it, you're in the fire industry or you're an electrician or a plumber or Gas Safe or anything like that that you need.

00:48:28
Um, but yeah, I generally find that the guidance in accreditations is very loose and it just costs small businesses a lot of money that they don't really need to spend.
Um, and then-

00:48:38
Okay, that's interesting.
So are there, are there, uh, I didn't put this on the agenda, it's just come to me, but o-obviously a lot of our l-my listeners will be working for tier one contractors or consultancies that have targets on their back to engage SMEs.
Um, so what, from their perspective, and, and of course we should bear in mind you tend to win deals because you've got the most valuable solution, right?
Whether it's to build the job or run the program as a project manager or whatever it is.
And those, that, those, generally speaking, your supply chain can bring a lot of that value.

00:49:13
So what, what should tier one organizations do to get a better response or more value from their supply chain, I think?
How should they do things differently from their perspective?

00:49:23
I think targeting the supply chain or engaging the supply chain should be more intentional.
Um, you know, when I was working on s-sort of major infrastructure projects, some of the work packages, you know, we would engage in SMEs, and we would meet the buyer events.
Um, but I'm standing there with, you know, a, a multimillion-pound paint and decorating or joinery package, and there are painter/decorator or joiners coming up to me, and I know that they can't deliver it.

You know, I, I...
It's just, it's, it's too risky, and it won't work.
They don't know that, though,'cause they, they just want to be on the project.

00:49:57
And I think there's a l-a level of transparency required there, where if you're at one of those events, it's really important to, um, to give an idea of what those packages are and, you know, what the level is to-required to deliver it.
And then that's not just a ConstructionLine Gold accreditation or, you know, whatever, or a certain level of insurance.
Um, and I'm not really sure how best to communicate that.
I mean, through the Skilled Trades Network, we have an event in September called Meet The Contractor, and it is essentially what I'm trying to do.

00:50:27
But, um, it, it's only'cause it's me that's organizing it, and I am making it intentional, and I've made sure that the exhibitors there are smaller.
And but they have opportunities to tender so that if you're an attendee and you've maybe never tendered before, or you've got a very small team, those exhibitors are not tier one contractors with multimillion-pound projects.
Those are exhibitors that are maybe doing a 500K project where their tender packages are a couple thousand pounds.
And it's just, again, more accessible.
And that is intentional.

00:50:59
And I don't, you know, that is just me organizing this on my own.
So it's amazing what a tier one contractor could do if they really did think about it.
Um, and then, you know, I think as well, there's, there's, there's so many amazing projects and infrastructure projects going on just now that n-the supply chain aren't even aware of.
And I'm not sure,[laughs]I'm not sure, I mean, how we are, how we, how we talk about these projects that we tender.
I think we're all keeping it close to our chest because we don't want our competitors to know that we're tendering for it or, you know, I don't know if there's, if it's maybe something that businesses should include in their sort of, um, their strategy is to, you know, look more at public consultations and things and try to be more aware of projects.

00:51:43
But, you know, even, like I said, you know, a, a, a circa£2 billion hospital, and a lot of the local businesses had no idea what was going on.
That's craziness.
Um, you know, and then, uh, there was a design issue, and the hospital's been halted.

But, you know, there's still£100 million worth of groundwork's been done, and nobody knows that it's going on on their doorstep.
Um, and it's just such a disconnect with society, I think, about what's actually going on in our communities.
Um, when we were delivering projects in the north of Scotland with Balfour Beatty, they would have to do, like, engagement, um, engagement days and consultations and stuff like that because it was so rural.

00:52:20
And there was so much-

00:52:21
Yeah, yeah

00:52:21
...
friction with those projects.
And I think if we took an element of that into just general local projects, um, I mean, like s-I remember the days where my mum used to go to the sort of local community hall and talk with a counselor.
Um, and I just think none of that happens anymore.

We send an email, and we expect them to pick it up.
And I just think maybe something more community-focused about the projects before they actually kick off.
I mean, my experience is in pre-construction, so I've always worked on projects that are may-or, or to be fair, even early development, so it could be five years in advance.

00:52:56
I mean, the small businesses don't want to know about a project that's kicking off in five years.
So again, it's really finding the balance about, you know, when do we appoint the contractors?
'Cause sometimes it is two to three years in advance.
And you have an idea that they are, they have won the contract, or they are gonna be on site.

By that point, a smaller business has lost the opportunity.
And then it is only sub-subcontracting for them, which I still see as an opportunity.
Um, but either they don't, or the subcontractor doesn't,'cause they want to keep it for themselves, which is fine'cause they've earned it.

00:53:28
But it's just really, um, building a more collaborative approach over competition.

00:53:35
Yeah.
And, and ask your supply chain for ideas.
How can you help us win this job, or how should we do it more efficiently, effectively?

'Cause no one's got a monopoly on good ideas.
Uh, as much as we've got loads of clever people working in those big firms, there's stuff those guys and girls are doing on projects every day that might well make it safer, save them money, whatever it might be.
And I, I see this in my s-I've got a serviced accommodation business now, basically medium-term Airbnbs in the Northeast that's heavily connected to infrastructure projects.

00:54:08
Mm-hmm.

00:54:08
And you're absolutely right.
It's been incredibly difficult to visualize and understand what's going on.
And the only way we unlocked it was that my business partner and I went to UKREiiF, the big property conference.

00:54:20
Mm.

00:54:20
And the combined authority had, well, not just a stand, they had a building.
W-and there they had a map of what all the proj-what was going on.
Uh, and from that, we were able to try and understand where we should, uh, get some properties so that we're in the right places when the stuff comes along.

00:54:39
Yeah.

00:54:39
Um, but yeah, it's very difficult to find that information.
Uh, it's not coordinated, and, um, it's quite frustrating.
So I get where you're coming from.
Well, we're, we're out of time, Pamela.
Um, so I've really appreciated that conversation, actually.

It's one I'd wanted to have for a long time and hadn't found anybody to talk to.
Um, so it was great to, um, cross paths and be able to do that.
So how, how do people find you, um, find you on LinkedIn, Pamela Cunningham, and-

00:55:07
Yeah.

00:55:08
Um-

00:55:08
Uh, on LinkedIn, there's my name, Pamela Cunningham, and then I am on Instagram and TikTok, and it is Growth and Performance.
And my business is Growth and Performance Solutions.

00:55:18
There we go.
Wonderful.
Well, thank you for coming along, and, um, I'm sure people will, uh, watch and, um, enjoy your work with your clients.
Thank you.

00:55:28
Thank you.
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